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Talk:Pietro Maximoff (Earth-199999)
Avengers Membership Pietro was never formally recognised as an Avenger within the scope of Avengers: Age of Ultron, and therefore I believe edits proclaiming him to be a member are tantamount to publishing false information. It doesn't matter what Hawkeye said to Wanda - just as with Coulson last time around, an ally is still only an ally. -- WarBlade (talk) 08:54, May 2, 2015 (UTC) If Hawkeye considered Wanda to be an Avenger just because she went to fight, why wouldn't he consider Pietro one when he sacrificed himself? Also, Whedon said an AVENGER was going to die. Bridgetterocks My talk!!! 17:21, May 2, 2015 (UTC) :Whedon's comments exist outside the scope of the movie. This wiki primarily documents content inside the confines of the story plots, and while sometimes things like the credit crawl can fill in a blank, if outside information conflicts with the internal content, then the internal content trumps it. As for Hawkeye's speech, that was a symbolic gesture, not an official invitation. -- WarBlade (talk) 21:03, May 2, 2015 (UTC) ::Many things in this wiki aren't officially stated in films, yet they are taken as valid because of external information. There wasn't a confirmation, but there wasn't a denial either, so Whedon's comments apply here. If the film had said "Pietro wasn't an Avenger", then it would overlap with the external sources and therefore, the only valid information would be that handled in the film. However, as no one confirmed or denied it, then the director's comments apply. Bridgetterocks My talk!!! 22:03, May 2, 2015 (UTC) :::But Coulson's case is different. Coulson is like Fury, he is not an official member but he helps them from outside. But Pietro did the same as Wanda, he helped the Avengers to save the people, I think he was an Avenger, or he was considered one after his death. Red Nightwing (talk) May 2, 2015 :::Exactly what I think. You didn't see Coulson or Fury in the Battle of New York. But you do see both Pietro and Wanda fighting against the Ultron Sentries and Ultron himself. Especially after his death, I think he was considered an Avenger. Bridgetterocks My talk!!! 05:07, May 3, 2015 (UTC) ::::To fight alongside the Avengers makes him an "ally" of the Avengers, not a member. Only if he was formally added to the team can he be a member. -- WarBlade (talk) 05:32, May 3, 2015 (UTC) ::::: No, Pepper Potts is an ally, Selvig is an ally, Dr. Cho is an ally. Fury is an ally. Pietro is an Avenger. If you think Pietro and say, Coulson did the same, then we watched different films. Bridgetterocks My talk!!! 05:35, May 3, 2015 (UTC) ::::::I never said those characters did the same. I said that Pietro can only be a member if he was formally added to the team. -- WarBlade (talk) 06:28, May 3, 2015 (UTC) ::::::If not stated otherwise in the film, what the director/writer/etc. goes. We do that with every other character. Cal's last name was never confirmed in Agents of SHIELD, but as the executive producers confirmed it was Calvin Zabo, we take is as a fact. As there was nothing that stated otherwise, what Whedon said goes. Also, it is not necessary to have someone to confirm it in the film to consider them part of the team. The only difference between Wanda and Pietro is that she survived. What makes Wanda an Avenger isn't the final scene but the battle in floating Sokovia. Bridgetterocks My talk!!! 06:40, May 3, 2015 (UTC) :::::::The movie did make a statement. It made it with that epilogue scene, and Pietro was not part of that statement. He could have been posthumously recognised in the story, but he wasn't. Yes, external notes (like directors' comments) sometimes get used to fill in a blank, but we shouldn't start using personal interpretations of them to create something that never existed. -- WarBlade (talk) 07:45, May 3, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::No, it did not make any statement. How on Earth do you want Pietro to appear in the epilogue? He's dead! But of course he was recognized as an Avenger. And what external sources say can fill in the blanks in this case too, as NO ONE said anything about Pietro being or not being an Avenger. If there's a void (otherwise there wouldn't be this discussion) we go for external sources. That's what we have been doing in the MCU, and no one has a problem with it. If it had been said "no, he's not an Avenger" then I wouldn't say anything and even if Whedon had said he was, it would overlap the main source. But NO ONE made any statement against Pietro's membership within the film. That epilogue scene was a body count of the remaining Avengers and the new ones. How do you expect Pietro to appear? Any mention to him being a member would've ruined the scene, as no one except Steve and Nat said A WORD. So if in next film they say he wasn't an Avenger, then I'll gladly give up, but for now, we must take our external source. Bridgetterocks My talk!!! 16:38, May 3, 2015 (UTC) (ri)"But of course he was recognized as an Avenger." :At no point in the story did that happen. "And what external sources say can fill in the blanks in this case too, NO ONE said anything about Pietro being or not being an Avenger." :And because no one said any about him being an Avenger, he shouldn't be listed as one. "If there's a void (otherwise there wouldn't be this discussion) we go for external sources." :There is no void here. There is only you presenting an opinion that is unsupported by by the content of the story, and you're trying to justify that opinion by referencing a comment from the director. Now if Captain America: Civil War turns around and presents us with posthumous recognition, then we would have something to debate, but right now you're only publishing an assumption. "So if in next film they say he wasn't an Avenger, then I'll gladly give up, but for now, we must take our external source." :The story itself provides sufficient information. To reach for an external comment in this case is just grasping at a straw. -- WarBlade (talk) 21:48, May 3, 2015 (UTC) ::Then you can go and change all the other pages in which the Wiki used directors/exec. producers/etc.'s comments to justify name pages, etc. There is a void because I'm not the only one who thinks Pietro was an Avenger, and you probably aren't the only one who thinks he wasn't one. In situations like this, the wiki HAS used external sources. If you have a problem you can go change the Calvin Zabo page, the Sharon Carter page, etc. But you can't say it's not ok to take directors' comments into account when the wiki has done it before. I think it's the other way round, if in Civil War they say he wasn't an Avenger, then we change it because up to now, even though the story didn't say anything about him being a member of the team, the staff confirmed it. If what the staff says gets contradicted in future films, of course the story itself has more value than someone's comments. But until then, this should remain with Pietro as an Avenger. Also, "something to debate"? If Civil War gives him posthumous recognition, there's nothing to debate. Bridgetterocks My talk!!! 23:56, May 3, 2015 (UTC) :::I have consulted with an admin and his vote would be to put Quicksilver in the Avengers. Just saying. -- Hulkophile (talk) 18:12, May 4, 2015 (UTC) ::::I've started a discussion to hopefully help resolve the dispute. -- Annabell (talk) 22:37, April 5, 2016 (UTC) :::::I don't see why that was necessary since the "dispute" had been resolved *a year ago* and it was only recently someone started edit wars by removing him as an Avenger. Everyone had agreed back in May that Quicksilver would be listed as an Avenger. -- Hulkophile (talk) 23:53, April 5, 2016 (UTC) ::::::It's necessary because opinions could have changed. That's how wiki works. Besides, I don't see any kind of consensus agreed on this page. —Mrkermit (talk) 00:21, April 6, 2016 (UTC) :::::::It's so anti-progressive to open a debate a year after it was settled just because a couple people change their opinions. Anyways, yes, there was a debate. A few people voted, and the page was at peace for almost an entire year until someone started edit wars. There was a consensus reached here and on somewhere in ADour's talk page. -- Hulkophile (talk) 5:42, April 6, 2016 (UTC) ::::::::The question on the film's talk page appears to me to be whether or not three different characters are featured or supporting, not specifically whether or not Pietro is an official member of the Avengers. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive and regardless I didn't post a discussion on something that was clearly settled, 'cause if it had been, then people would be able to point to a place where it was explicitly a community consensus of his official status every time any editor attempted to change it, but that's not what was happening, instead it was a back and forth with very little actual dialogue until one party got frustrated and gave up trying to be accurate, and there's certainly no harm in civil debate and even less harm in ensuring people communicate reasoning whenever they undo an edit. -- Annabell (talk) 07:21, April 6, 2016 (UTC) ::::::::It would be even more anti-progressive to stop progression altogether. It's frustrating to have a same discussion again but it's going to happen with controversial subjects and unfortunately I don't know any better way. —Mrkermit (talk) 18:54, April 6, 2016 (UTC) ::::::::Also, its not just a couple people who changed their opinions. The majority of the people who have so far voiced their opinions on the new discussion page think that he shouldn't be considered an Avenger. --Hufflepuffgirl28 (talk) 19:51, April 6, 2016 (UTC) Result of the discussion was: Quicksilver was not a member of Avengers —Mrkermit (talk) 20:03, April 17, 2016 (UTC)